Céline Coubray: The macaron has become your signature treat. Why did you set your sights on this pastry?

Pierre Hermé: It’s been a long journey over a number of years. When I learned in the mid-1970s to make the macaron, I didn’t like it. I didn’t think it was tasty enough and it was too sweet. But along the way, I started making macarons for myself. To give them more flavour, I added more filling, but as little sugar as possible, because the shell already contained sugar that you couldn’t remove without losing the physical properties of the biscuit.

At that time, there were only chocolate, vanilla, coffee or raspberry macarons. I then thought that there were other flavours to work on and that the macaron could become an interesting field of exploration. I started by interpreting the flavours we had in pastry. Then the opposite happened. What I was discovering with my macarons was finding its way into my pastries. It’s also a product that’s easy to transport and store, making it easy to distribute. At the same time, we’ve worked on specific packaging that makes it possible to think of macarons as gifts to be offered when you’re invited to people’s homes.

So you saw a commercial potential in this product that went beyond the simple mignardise?

I imagined a potential development that would complement the patisserie and chocolate business we already had.

Luxembourg has a very specific history with the macaron. Can you explain?

Oh yes, and it’s not just a bit! I did a lot of research into the history of the macaron and it was only very late--around 2015 or 2016--that I discovered that the father of the macaron as we know it today is in fact the Luxembourger Camille Studer [who is also the founder of La Provençale and Cactus supermarkets, editor’s note]. In the 1950s, he worked as a pastry chef at Sprüngli in Zurich, where he introduced macarons that were then called Luxemburgerli. I’m now convinced that this is in fact the forerunner of our macarons--contrary to what I myself may have written when I was a consultant at Ladurée and thought that it was Louis Ernest Ladurée who had the idea for the macaron. It was Pit Oberweis who put me on this track.

You’ve also known the Oberweis family for several years...

Yes, I lived in Luxembourg for a year in 1995, when I was head pastry chef for the opening of the Intercontinental hotel in Dommeldange [now the DoubleTree by Hilton, editor’s note]. It was at that time that I met Pit Oberweis, who helped me at that point in my career by pointing me in the direction of suppliers, where to find equipment... I’m very grateful, and I’ve remained friends with the Oberweis family ever since. Jeff Oberweis, his son, worked with me at Fauchon in Paris.

What does a good cake mean to you?

A good cake should stir up the emotions of those who eat it. The rest is literature. I could say: it has to be made with good ingredients, it has to be fresh... but that’s obvious. Giving emotions is the very essence of my job.

How are your collections of macarons put together?

In the pastry house, you have the macarons that are part of the “Infiniment” series: Infiniment Pistache, Infiniment Chocolat, Infiniment Noisette... And there are the flavours that I have created over the years, such as Ispahan [with rose, lychee and raspberry, editor’s note], Mogador (milk chocolate and passion fruit, editor’s note). There’s also the Jardin collection and the latest short-lived creations, such as tomato leaf, amber and caramel, cream of fig... There’s always a balance between the Infiniment collection--the house’s signature flavours--and the creative and seasonal macarons.

These creations sometimes have very surprising tastes, like the tomato leaf macaron you’ve just mentioned. How do you create these flavours?

It’s all down to intuition. The idea for the tomato leaf came to me in the gardens of La Mamounia in Marrakech, where there were still tomato plants. I crumpled a leaf in my hand and it reminded me of the smell of a scented candle created by Parisian florist Christian Tortu that I had at home. I tried to reproduce the taste of this tomato leaf. In this macaron, you get both the vegetal side and the taste of the fruit. The same goes for the amber and caramel macaron: amber comes from the world of perfume, with a powerful, deep smell, like caramel. Hence the desire to combine them.

Do you work on your taste in the same way that a musician or sportsman has to train regularly?

For us, it’s easy to train because we eat every day. I’m curious and taste a lot. This work is done on a daily basis and is also supplemented by research into specific flavours. At the moment, for example, I’m working on the taste of toast. And if you combine it with praline, it gives you yet another flavour.

It’s an exercise I do spontaneously and it’s more a state of mind than training. I’m also very inspired by smells. What not many people know is that I’ve also created 17 fragrances for L’Occitane. I did this alongside my job as a pastry chef and I found it very enriching, in terms of my knowledge of materials. Taste and smell are closely linked.

Do you plan to create a macaron that is more specific to Luxembourg?

It’s actually planned. In general, when we open a new boutique, we do it with the existing collections, which are already rich. Then, by talking to the shop team and drawing on my knowledge of the country, we will certainly develop a new flavour.

How much importance do you give to the visual aspect of your pastries?

You know how they say ‘you eat with your eyes’? But there's a difference. The product has to be appetising and make you want to eat it. When you walk past a patisserie, you don’t buy straight away. You look first. So it’a important that our products are neat and appetising, but the most important thing is that they taste good.

The interiors of your shops are also very elaborate, which is one of the things that sets you apart from your colleagues.

It’s something I've been working on since 1997-1998, and which we implemented in our first boutique in Tokyo and in Paris, on Rue Bonaparte. I wanted a single level of pastry in the window, rather than two or three as was sometimes the case. It takes up more space, but it makes it easier to see what’s on offer. And you need beautiful materials. That’s one of the reasons why my work has been described as ‘haute pâtisserie,’ complemented by attention to service and detail, beautiful packaging and, of course, the quality of the ingredients to ensure high quality production.

What are the essential characteristics of a Pierre Hermé patisserie?

Taste. It’s trite, but that’s what it is.

So how would you define Pierre Hermé taste?

There isn’t one definition, but thousands. Taste is always marked, worked on, thought through. I’m behind all the products, so everything that comes out of our workshops is to my taste.

Can you explain this creative and production process?

I have a design studio where we work 12 to 18 months in advance on the different annual themes--Easter, Mother’s Day, Valentine’s Day... At the same time, we also work without an exact objective. And that’s often what pays off. Recently, we worked on a macaron based on the idea of a slice of bread with chocolate. I made it at the request of a friend. It’s not a macaron that we’re necessarily going to market, but by doing this work I’m learning new things. Because the request is incongruous, unusual. This work helps me to differentiate us from our colleagues.

When you work to a schedule, the ideas you generate are often less powerful than when you work freely. It’s work that's closer to fundamental research. For example, we are currently working on ultrasound infusion with a researcher from the University of Paris-Saclay. Using this process, we can obtain infusions with much more accurate and powerful tastes, because there is no deformation caused by heat. These experiments take time to produce a marketable product, but they enrich our heritage of knowhow, which is very important.

This means that we always have to be open to other disciplines, other fields...

That’s our job. For over 30 years, I’ve been involved in dialogues with artists and craftspeople. It’s very enriching. Each time, we come up with different schemes. It enriches me personally, as well as the company’s heritage.

What is the production process like once the design has been created?

Once the recipe has been tested and validated, the pastry chefs in the R&D team write down the recipes, step by step, with the weights of all the ingredients, so that whoever is going to reproduce it has a permanent reference. The R&D team then works with the pastry chefs in the workshop during the first production runs, helping them to put the recipes into practice.

You have sales outlets all over the world. Where are your workshops located?

We make macarons, chocolates and cakes for the whole world at our factory in Wittenheim, Alsace. Everything starts from this factory. The macarons sold in Luxembourg are exactly the same as those sold in Paris. The pastries are different. Wherever we sell pastries, we have a laboratory. We have laboratories in Tokyo, Marrakech, Doha, Istanbul, etc. Some products are imported, while others are sourced locally. I have a team of chefs who accompany the chefs on site. After that, there’s a team that supports them on a daily basis.

Was pâtisserie always your first choice for a career?

I was born into it. I’m the fourth generation of pastry chefs, and from the age of nine I knew I wanted to do this job. I had a grandfather who was a gardener and an uncle who was an architect, two disciplines that I also loved, but I still preferred pastry-making. Architecture has always fascinated me because of the ability to imagine structures in which people can live and move around... I often talk about the architecture of taste, but that has nothing to do with construction.

Together with Linda Vongdara, you have written a book entitled Pâtisserie végétale, published by Éditions Solar. Is this the future of patisserie?

When it comes to savoury dishes, there isn’t a restaurant these days that doesn’t offer a vegetarian dish. If you ask me if this is something that will affect pastry-making, yes, I’m sure it will. But there is one condition: the cakes have to be as good and as beautiful as any other pastry. It’s just that it requires other ingredients, other techniques sometimes. But you’re going to say to me: ‘In brioche, I don’t get the taste of butter…’ Yes, of course. You won’t get the taste of butter, but you will get the texture of brioche. I think it’s absurd to look for the same thing in vegan as in traditional pastry. In our range of pastries, we always offer at least one vegan alternative and one sensible gourmet pastry.

It’s important to always try to stand out from the crowd.

Pierre Hermé

What is a sensible gourmet patisserie?

It’s a pastry that’s lower in calories. For me, these are the directions of the future. Most of the time, people think that making a light pastry means using less sugar. But if you put in less sugar, you put in more fat... The aim of sensible pastry-making is to reduce carbohydrates and fats. Today, we have around ten ‘gourmandise raisonnée’ recipes. Nobody asked me to do it, but it’s a very interesting way of working.

When you're Pierre Hermé, what’s your day like?

No two days are alike [laughs].

Do you travel a lot?

Yes, quite a lot. But I still stay mainly in Paris.

Do you impose a certain discipline on your schedule?

Yes, it’s necessary. I always have time set aside for my chefs. The R&D workshop is just below my office, so discussions are very easy and spontaneous.

Do you tend to work seven days a week, or do you know how to preserve time for yourself when you’re not working?

In fact, I feel like I never work [laughs]. Because my job is a passion and I don’t think I need to make an effort to work. Of course, I like to take time out to do other things. I’m interested in contemporary art, I’m passionate about wine, I like going to the theatre and the opera, and I love the world of fashion. And above all, I have lots of friends, so I make time for them.

How do you manage to keep up with your colleagues and competitors?

In my job, it’s important to always try to stand out from the crowd. That means not following trends and fashions. I prefer to create them rather than be subjected to them.

You’re a pastry chef as well as a business owner: how do you keep the balance between the two?

In fact, I set up this company to do this job the way I want to do it. That’s always been my guiding principle. It’s not the desire to be an entrepreneur. I’ve organised the company in such a way that I’m always aware of what’s going on, but I’m not in the thick of things. I prefer to stay at the oven.

In 2021, after the lockdown, Pierre Hermé was given a new lease of life with the arrival of Walter Butler, who bought the majority of the capital owned by LOG Investment. You kept the rest of the company’s shares. What did the arrival of this new partner bring?

I’ve always had a partner, right from the start, so that I could stay focused on my job as a pastry chef. Walter Butler and his team have made it possible to continue developing the company by opening new boutiques in France, in town centres as well as in railway station and airport shops. We are also working on international development, with our preferred areas being the Middle East, such as Dubai and Abu Dhabi, and Asia, excluding Japan where we are already present, in Singapore and Jakarta.

When you open internationally, do you do so on your own or with partners?

On our own in France, Japan, the UK and Hong Kong. In other countries, we work with local partners, as is the case for Luxembourg.

With all this expansion, aren’t you afraid that too much Pierre Hermé will kill Pierre Hermé?

If I thought that, I’d stop developing! The most important thing is to have the people to ensure this development.

A good cake must stir up the emotions of those who eat it.

Pierre Hermé

For you, rarity doesn’t bring value?

Ask Hermès or Dior if they find it interesting...

You’ve associated your name with major brands like Nespresso. Aren’t you afraid of losing your soul by accepting this association?

If we take the example of the partnership with Nespresso, it was very interesting. I have a passion for coffee and it’s a profession that I’ve developed in-house. I asked myself what I could bring to Nespresso. We worked for nearly three years on developing three coffees, and I went all the way. I didn’t just sign off on the coffees: I went with them to Colombia, we worked on the selection of beans, the roasting, the grinding, and we came up with a pure-origin coffee that’s really good.

For their part, they wanted to make flavoured coffees. I suggested we work on raspberry and hazelnut coffees. At the first meeting, I came with roasted Piedmont hazelnuts and fresh raspberries. And I told them that as long as we didn’t have the taste of these products, we wouldn’t release the coffee. And we succeeded. What’s important when you enter into a partnership with a big brand like Nespresso is to do work that enables you to offer something other than just signing up to a collection.

At the moment, we’re doing a partnership with La Poste on stamps for Valentine’s Day. The stamps are going to be beautiful and smell good, they’ll be scented. I’ve also done a partnership with the Monnaie de Paris, which has resulted in a coin in the image of a macaron. And making a coin in volume had never been done before. So we had to come up with something completely new, which won us a prize for innovation in coinage in the United States. Each new partnership is an opportunity to experiment.

As in any life, there are victories... and failures. Which one have you learnt the most from?

[Laughs] When Charles Znaty and I set up the company, we were looking for funding. After three years, we still hadn’t found anything. Back in 1997-2000, everyone was creating websites and didn’t understand the principle behind our pâtisserie.

At a certain point, I had the opportunity to team up with Jean-Luc Delarue, who wanted to create a group in the restaurant business. We joined forces to open the shop in Paris in 2001. At the beginning of 2002, we made the TV programme Envoyé spécial, and the very next day, there was a 50-metre queue outside the shop. It was a great success. But our partners had business problems and didn’t invest as promised. What’s more, they added to our debts, because we were supplying them with pastries for their restaurants, which they never paid for. As a result, we had to file for bankruptcy.

There were about thirty of us in the company, including people who had followed me from Fauchon. One morning, I found myself standing in front of them, having to tell them that we had a problem and had to file for bankruptcy. But also that we were going to fight and that we were going to make it. It was a really difficult situation. I had to explain the situation to all our suppliers. That’s when you really learn about life. Fortunately, we got through it, paid off our debts and were able to continue the business. In those circumstances, with a very factual effect like that, you learn a lot, I can assure you.

Are you more wary of your associations now?

Yes, you have to be. But at the time, we had no other solution. Today, the bride is much more beautiful, so it’s easier to be more rigorous.

Is the question of transmission a subject that occupies you?

In our profession, it’s fundamental! We train a lot of apprentices in our company. It’s a duty.

Would you like to set up a Pierre Hermé school?

We’re thinking about it and working on it. At the moment, I’m sponsoring the French Culinary Institute in Bordeaux, where I work on the teaching committee and on the content of the course.

What is your next professional challenge?

I’m very interested in the transmission of flavour by ultrasound. We’ve just bought the machine. We saw it being made at Saclay by Raphaël Haumont, but now we’re going to do our tests and try to find another method to give our products even more flavour.”

La Maison Pierre Hermé

La Maison de Haute Pâtisserie conceived by Pierre Hermé was founded in 1997 with Charles Znaty, who is still president of the company today. In 1998, the first boutique was opened in Tokyo. It wasn’t until 2001 that a patisserie was opened in Paris, at 72 Rue Bonaparte in Saint-Germain. In 2016, Hermé was voted “World’s Best Pastry Chef” by the Academy of the World’s 50 Best Restaurants. As part of ongoing efforts to promote French expertise, Hermé is a member of several associations, including the Comité Colbert and Relais Desserts. Pierre Hermé Paris is also a partner of the Ritz-Carlton, Park Hyatt, La Mamounia, New Otani, Oetker Collection and other groups.

Since December 2021, Butler Industries has been the majority shareholder in the company, having bought out the capital previously held by LOG Investment (L’Occitane’s holding company). Hermé owns the remainder of the company. The company has more than 70 sales outlets in twelve countries, and a workforce of nearly 600.

The boutique in Luxembourg

The Pierre Hermé Paris boutique in Luxembourg is located at 6 Rue Aldringen. It sells macarons, of course, but also chocolates, cakes, ice creams, jams and teas. The Luxembourg franchise is run by Mattéo Cambou and employs seven people. The interior was designed by interior architect Laura Gonzalez.

This article was originally written in for the , published on 23 October. The content is produced exclusively for the magazine. It is published on the website as a contribution to the complete Paperjam archive. . Is your company a member of the Paperjam Club? You can request a subscription in your name. Let us know via